Meddling with Life and Death

Welcome to Celebrate Poe - Episode 335- Meddling With Life and Death

This episode is a continuation of a discussion between Mr. Bartley and the Ghost of Edgar Allan Poe regarding Mary Shelley and Frankenstein. 

Thank you for experiencing Celebrate Poe.

Transcript

Mr. Bartley - plain text

Ghost of Mr. Poe - italics text

Welcome to Celebrate Poe - Episode 335- Meddling with life and death

Well, hello, Mr. Poe - it certainly was enjoyable talking with you in the previous episode regarding Mary Shelley and Frankenstein.  But I would like to continue our discussion.   Your insights are most fascinating.

GHOST SOUND

Thank you, Mr. Bartley - I must admit that my works DO share a thematic and stylistic similarity with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, particularly in their exploration of Gothic elements, the macabre, and human ambition. For example, while my work "Some Words with a Mummy" is less directly comparable to Frankenstein in tone and scope, it does share some thematic overlaps, such as its focus on scientific curiosity and the consequences of meddling with life and death.

Yes, I agree.

And I do believe that in Frankenstein, Victor Frankenstein's hubris leads him to create life, resulting in a tragic exploration of human ambition and its unintended consequences. I likewise often explore similar themes of human folly. For instance, "The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar" examines the consequences of tampering with life through mesmerism, while the previously mentioned "Some Words with a Mummy" humorously critiques scientific arrogance by resurrecting an ancient Egyptian mummy.

What about similar settings - always influential to a story?

Ah, Mr. Bartley, Ms. Shelley and I both employ dark and eerie settings to heighten tension. Shelley's remote laboratories and desolate landscapes parallel my decaying mansions and claustrophobic spaces, such as in "The Fall of the House of Usher”.  And don’t forget, Mr. Bartley - Ms. Shelley’s
creature - as exemplified in the creature - is a para-human entity—both human-like and grotesque—which evokes fear and pity. Similarly, my stories often feature characters or beings that blur the line between human and otherworldly, such as Roderick Usher or even the previously mentioned mummy in "Some Words with a Mummy".

Mr. Poe, would you say that Ms. Shelley and you wrote about the overreach of science?

Ah, Mr. Bartley - an excellent observation.  We both definitely critiqued the overreach of science. Shelley's Victor Frankenstein embodies the dangers of unchecked ambition, while I preferred satire in "Some Words with a Mummy" to highlight the absurdity of modern scientific claims compared to ancient wisdom.

You know, Mr. Poe, Some Words with a Mummy is certainly not one of your most well-known stories, but I feel it definitely resonates - with its somewhat similar interest in resurrection and scientific hubris.

Ah, Mr. Bartley - May I point out how this inversion of expectations mirrors the manner in which Ms. Shelley’s creature surpasses Victor intellectually and emotionally, challenging humanity’s assumptions about superiority.

Yes, Mr. Poe - I would definitely consider the creature comparable to characters in some of your works.

Ah, Mr. Bartley - that is quite observant.  Consider The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar - A chilling tale about experiments on life and death through mesmerism as having similar dynamics to Frankenstein.  And Ligeia as a haunting story about love, death, and resurrection.  Or The Fall of the House of Usher with its exploration of decay, madness, and family curses.

Yes - and all within a family setting.

Ah, yes, Mr. Bartley - how observant.  All these stories explore decay, madness, and family curses within a Gothic setting.

And all the stories examine humanity’s darker ambitions.

Precisely, Mr Bartley.

But Mr. Poe, Exactly how does your use of the supernatural compare to that of Ms. Shelley in Frankenstein

Ah, Mr. Bartley, one might say that both Ms. Shelley and myself used the supernatural to explore Gothic themes, but we approached it in distinct ways that reflect our differing literary styles and thematic focuses.

How is that, Mr. Poe?

Ah, Mr. Bartley, I tended to use supernatural elements to evoke psychological terror and existential dread. My works, such as The Fall of the House of Usher or The Tell-Tale Heart, focus on internal horrors, madness, and the uncanny. The supernatural in my stories is frequently ambiguous, leaving readers uncertain whether the events are genuinely otherworldly or manifestations of disturbed minds. For example, in M.S. Found in a Bottle, natural forces such as the sea take on a sublime and almost supernatural quality, culminating in a surreal abyss that suggests humanity's insignificance in the face of cosmic forces.

I think that is a fair assessment, Mr. Poe.

On the other hand, in my opinion, Ms. Shelley’s use of the supernatural is more grounded in what one might refer to as scientific transgression. You see, Victor Frankenstein’s creation of life breaks natural laws but is framed within the context of Enlightenment science pushed to its extremes. The creature itself embodies both the unnatural and supernatural, as it is man-made yet surpasses human boundaries in strength and intellect. Unlike my often ambiguous horrors, Mr. Shelley utilizes the supernatural to critique human ambition and explore moral consequences.

And furthermore, Mr. Bartley, Ms. Shelley juxtaposes nature with the supernatural, portraying nature as both harmonious and punitive toward Victor's unnatural acts. On the other hand, I tend to merge natural and supernatural forces, as seen in M.S. Found in a Bottle, where nature itself becomes an overwhelming, almost mystical power.

Mr. Poe - could you briefly address the psychological focus in your works:

Certainly, Mr. Bartley - tho such a focus  is a rather complicated topic. My works dealing with the supernatural often serves as a lens for exploring psychological states, such as guilt or fear, creating suspense through ambiguity - while Ms Shelley tends to use the supernatural to explore ethical dilemmas and societal issues, such as responsibility and alienation - a sometimes subtle but nevertheless important distinction.

But Mr. Bartley - let me emphasize that both Ms. Shelley and myself often use the supernatural to delve into Gothic themes - Ms. Shelley’s focus
lies in moral critique through scientific hubris, whereas I tend to emphasize psychological terror and existential mysteries.

Interesting, Mr. Poe - but how does the supernatural play a role in shaping the moral dilemmas in Frankenstein and your stories.

Mr. Bartley - a fascinating question. The supernatural definitely plays a critical role in shaping the moral dilemmas in both Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and my stories, though the way it is employed differs significantly between us.  We both use supernatural elements to explore human ambition, ethical boundaries, and psychological struggles, but our approaches reflect our distinct thematic priorities.

Mr. Poe - continue -

Ah, Mr. Bartley - the central supernatural element in Frankenstein is Victor Frankenstein's act of creating life, which transcends natural laws. This act raises profound moral questions about humanity's right to "play God" and the ethical limits of scientific discovery.  The creature itself embodies these dilemmas, because its existence forces Victor—and society—to confront issues of responsibility, prejudice, and the consequences of unchecked ambition.

Mr. Poe - I think I understand your point.

Ah, Mr.. Bartley,  The creature can also be seen as a supernatural manifestation of Victor’s repressed fears and guilt. It represents the consequences of his moral failings and his inability to accept responsibility for his actions. This duality between creator and creation highlights the dangers of violating natural boundaries and ignoring ethical considerations in the pursuit of knowledge.

Very well stated, Mr Poe.

Thank you, Mr. Bartley - and I believe that Ms. Shelley’s aim is to
contrast the sublime power of nature with Victor’s unnatural creation. Nature punishes Victor for his transgressions, emphasizing the moral consequences of defying natural laws.

Well, Mr. Poe - how would you compare that to your - treatment of the  ambiguity of the supernatural?

Ah, Mr. Bartley, in contrast to Ms. Shelley’s more defined supernatural elements, I often blur the line between reality and imagination. For example, in The Fall of the House of Usher or The Tell-Tale Heart, it is unclear whether the events are genuinely supernatural or products of psychological instability.

 Note this section from my story, The Tell Tale Heart - No doubt I now grew very pale; --but I talked more fluently, and with a heightened voice. Yet the sound increased --and what could I do? It was a low, dull, quick sound --much such a sound as a watch makes when enveloped in cotton. I gasped for breath -- and yet the officers heard it not. I talked more quickly --more vehemently; but the noise steadily increased. I arose and argued about trifles, in a high key and with violent gesticulations; but the noise steadily increased. Why would they not be gone? I paced the floor to and fro with heavy strides, as if excited to fury by the observations of the men -- but the noise steadily increased. Oh God! what could I do? I foamed --I raved --I swore! I swung the chair upon which I had been sitting, and grated it upon the boards, but the noise arose over all and continually increased. It grew louder --louder --louder! And still the men chatted pleasantly, and smiled. Was it possible they heard not? Almighty God! --no, no! They heard! --they suspected! --they knew! --they were making a mockery of my horror! --this I thought, and this I think. But anything was better than this agony! Anything was more tolerable than this derision! I could bear those hypocritical smiles no longer! I felt that I must scream or die! --and now --again! --hark! louder! louder! louder! louder! --

    "Villains!" I shrieked, "dissemble no more! I admit the deed! --tear up the planks! --here, here! --it is the beating of his hideous heart!"\

Mr. Poe, I see what you mean.

Mr. Bartley - note that this ambiguity forces characters—and readers—to grapple with existential questions about perception, reality, and the limits of human understanding.  And in a similar vein, I often used supernatural elements as metaphors for internal struggles. For instance, in the previously mentioned The Tell-Tale Heart, the narrator’s paranoia and guilt take on an almost supernatural intensity, driving him to madness.

Excellent example, Mr.Poe.

Ah Mr. Bartley, while it could be argued that Ms. Shelley uses the supernatural to critique scientific overreach and societal ethics, I employ it to delve into personal guilt, madness, and existential fears. Both approaches highlight moral dilemmas but through different lenses—Ms. Shelley focuses on external consequences for humanity as a whole, while I emphasize internal struggles within individuals.

Oh, I think I understand now, Mr. Poe.  But how are supernatural elements used in both stories?

Mr. Bartley - I am not so sure you DO understand. Sometimes, Mr. Bartley, you can be so dense.  One must realize that the supernatural elements in Frankenstein and my stories serves to challenge characters' understanding of reality by blurring the boundaries between the natural and the extraordinary. These elements force characters to confront their perceptions of truth, morality, and the unknown, often leading to psychological or existential crises. For example, Victor Frankenstein's act of creating life transcends natural laws, introducing a supernatural element that disrupts his understanding of the natural order. His scientific ambition leads him into uncharted territory, where he grapples with the moral and existential implications of his actions. The creature itself embodies this disruption, as its unnatural creation forces Victor to question the limits of human capability and responsibility.

Does the very existence of the creature challenge Victor’s perception of reality?

Ah, Mr. Bartley - sometimes you can be so dense.The creature’s existence DEFINITELY challenges Victor’s perception of reality by embodying his repressed fears and guilt. It becomes a living representation of the consequences of his hubris, forcing him to confront the duality of creator and creation. This tension between the natural and supernatural highlights Victor’s descent into paranoia and moral conflict.

I think I understand.

Ah, Mr. Bartley, The supernatural nature of the creature—its grotesque appearance, superior strength, and isolation—creates an uncanny presence that disrupts societal norms. This ambiguity forces both Victor and others to question whether the monster is a reflection of human flaws or something entirely otherworldly.

I think I am beginning to see what you mean.

I hope so, Mr. Bartley. Note that in MY stories, I often use supernatural elements as metaphors for psychological states, such as guilt or madness. For example, in the previously mentioned The Tell-Tale Heart, the narrator’s delusions blur reality and imagination, leading him to perceive supernatural events (such as hearing the dead man’s heart) that reflect his inner torment.

Mr. Poe - that does make things a bit clearer.

Yes, Mr. Bartley - note that many of my narrators are unreliable, making it unclear whether supernatural occurrences are real or imagined. In The Fall of the House of Usher, for instance, Roderick Usher’s heightened sensitivity and mental deterioration make the apparent supernatural events—such as Madeline’s return from death—ambiguous, leaving both characters and readers questioning reality.  Often I even use supernatural elements to evoke existential dread by presenting characters with forces beyond their comprehension or control. In The Masque of the Red Death, for example, death itself takes on a supernatural form that defies human attempts to escape it, challenging characters’ belief in their ability to control their fate.

Mr. Poe - that still brings me back to the question of what role does the supernatural REALLY play in the themes of isolation and loneliness in Frankenstein and your stories.

Ah, Mr. Bartley - sometimes you are a bit - as they say - thick.  Now, the supernatural elements in Frankenstein and my Allan Poe's stories play a pivotal role in shaping the themes of isolation and loneliness by intensifying the characters' alienation from society and their own sense of reality. These elements serve as catalysts for the emotional and psychological struggles that arise from solitude, rejection, and the inability to reconcile with the world around them.

Yes, Mr. Bartley - I am glad you see the comparison. Victor Frankenstein’s pursuit of unnatural scientific knowledge isolates HIM from his family and friends. His obsession with creating life leads him to retreat into solitude, both physically and emotionally. This self-imposed isolation results in his mental and physical decline, mirroring the creature’s enforced loneliness.
The supernatural consequences of Victor’s ambition—creating a being that he cannot control—further isolate him as he becomes consumed by guilt and fear.
 
And, Mr. Bartley, the supernatural elements in Frankenstein highlight the universal human need for companionship. Both Victor and the creature suffer from their inability to form meaningful relationships, demonstrating how isolation—whether self-imposed or enforced—leads to misery and destruction. 

Mr. Poe, how do you feel that YOU have expressed a similar psychological isolation in some of your stories?

Ah, Mr. Bartley, in my stories, supernatural elements often blur the line between reality and imagination, isolating characters within their own minds. For example, in The Raven, the narrator is haunted by a seemingly supernatural bird that symbolizes his grief and loneliness. This interaction deepens his psychological torment and alienation from reality.

And then there is The Fall of the House of Usher - where Roderick Usher’s heightened sensitivity and belief in supernatural forces isolate him from others, trapping him in a decaying mansion that mirrors his deteriorating mind.

Mr. Bartley, in both Frankenstein and in my stories, the supernatural amplifies themes of isolation by creating circumstances that alienate characters from society or sometimes even trap them within their own minds. Ms. Shelley uses it to critique societal rejection and explore moral consequences, while I employ it to delve into psychological torment and existential fears. Both approaches underscore how isolation—whether enforced by external forces or internal struggles—leading to profound loneliness and despair.

Mr. Poe - let me conclude this episode by examine Victor Frankenstein’s isolation.  Note that his isolation is a central factor in his downfall, because it exacerbates his physical, emotional, and moral deterioration throughout Frankenstein. His self-imposed solitude, driven by his obsessive pursuit of knowledge and later by guilt and fear, alienates him from his family, society, and even himself, ultimately leading to tragic consequences.

Victor chooses to isolate himself from his family and friends while working on his experiment. He retreats to a "solitary chamber" to focus entirely on creating life, neglecting his health and relationships in the process. This period of isolation marks the beginning of his physical and mental decline, as he becomes malnourished, sleep-deprived, and emotionally detached.
His obsession with scientific discovery blinds him to the ethical implications of his actions. By cutting himself off from human connection, Victor loses the grounding influence of his loved ones, such as Elizabeth and Clerval, who could have tempered his ambition.

After bringing the creature to life, Victor immediately rejects it in horror and isolates himself further by refusing to take responsibility for his creation.

This abandonment not only isolates the creature but also sets off a chain of events that lead to Victor’s suffering and guilt. The creature’s own enforced isolation mirrors Victor’s self-imposed solitude. As the creature seeks vengeance for its rejection by destroying Victor’s loved ones, Victor becomes increasingly consumed by guilt and paranoia, deepening his isolation.

Mr. Bartley, I DO believe you are beginning to understand Ms. Shelley’s masterpiece. Excuse me, I must take my leave.  Farewell, Mr. Bartley.

Goodbye, Mr. Poe.  GHOST SOUND

Join Celebrate Poe for Episode 336 - where we delve into what is generally thought to be the first Gothic novel.

Sources include: Frankenstein: The 1818 Text by Mary Shelley, Mary Shelley by Miranda Seymour, and the Complete Works of Edgar Allan Poe by Edgar Allan Poe.

Thank you for listening to Celebrate Poe.